0.12.11 Balance suggestions by DW

And this is a guy with 19 wins and 1 defeat... so clearly his tactics are working...

yesterday i played with a Lion company based on lev5 mage (dont remember the player name but he had lone purple lev 3 archer in it) with chatisment and focus. For my luck it was open map (reversed Behemoth) so each of four chatisment casts damaged only one hb skelly. Guy was quite good at blocking his caster from gargoyle charge+offensive but this also prevented him from running with mage closer to his targets - so when he lost most of his pitfull swordsman guards due to puppets and skellys (+ some arrows) i managed to set a nice circle of two gargoyles and 3 skellys around (so only two units at once could be caught in chatisment) his seriously wounded mage and dying rest of company - he tried one last chatisment and left with gg

playing Vs Chatisment mage is 'easier' or simply more safe with RAM becouse you KNEW that enemy will start his turn - so you can expect 4 chatisments in a row. This really focuses you on blocking caster and his bodyguards - especialy when he is only threat in your company.

but also for lions if enemy have lev 5 mage - than you Should have more units and activations to pull one ready to strike and fresh unit in front of his mage - after his 2x chatisment activation. even if you dont win next discipline - mage is no longer able to kill fresh unit in one turn - even the lion (i dont remember if primal + 2 chatisments can kill it but after 2 chatisments he have no more than 8 mana)

so I assembled quickly a lion company...i just put in what i think are the best units lion has.

my comp is the following:

1x valk lvl 2 with favorable auspices (still wonder why i do not see them played more often =/ )
2x archers with accuracy (one with double shot one with aim)
2x swordsmen parry and taunt
2x lion of war with mobile
1x sparkling

3 matches, 3 victories...beside one where my opponent conceded after a 10 KM hitting aim shot, the other 2 matches were dominated and did not even put too much effort.

Swordsmen are a powerhouse with lions of war and taunt. If you still think they need a buff please use them with taunt which for some reasons is super underutilized or simply used wrong. They offer you a win-win situation with it: if the enemy hits them then is focusing on a 30 AP unit if it hits something else it will have -3 acc and -3 dam, which is so huge and relevant to protect the other units. All in all...please DO NOT buff them. They are already good.

Archers are OP as hell as i always thought. Try divine favor + favorable auspices...a nice ACC 31. You can perform even the craziest shot reliably on the other side of the map. If the enemy has an expensive unit worth 100+ AP , especially if melee...it will be dead meat so quickly it is not even fun. Lion archers compared to ANY other ranged units are from another galaxy. The damage output is out hand and it should be nerfed (i see accuracy as the nr.1 culprit).

Valkyrie is still very good but i saw it much much less often. Even after the nerf it is still very good. Also...to all the lion players which love to use mages...do you realize favorable auspices gives you +40% casting chance? For god's sake it should be an auto include into any mage-based comp as you can take recovery and have 100%+ cast chance...more mana + nearly impossible to fail spells = super damage. All in all...they are fine as they are altough maybe the combat tree might need to be a bit more appealing (i blame counterattack mechanic mostly as if you take it you are forced to go lvl 4 and investing too many AP into a valk is not very appealing imo)

Sparkling: great even without a mage or the healing. Nuff' said.

Lion of war: i wish fangs would be as cool as this guy. It is the assault unit which protects himself the best. You do not even need to invest into sneak attack because you can use the stance (+10 PAR) or you simply attack a taunted creature. The wolven hunter is garbage compared to it. I could care less about higher damage if it dies so quickly. All in all i think it is ok the only problem is the wolven hunter which makes gargoyle and lion look OP in comparison.


totally unrelated but i forgot to add it: wolven lonewolf's mortification difficulty should be lowered. You can't expect players to take mastery of the arcana for a warrior that goes in melee. Those 10 hp every turn without regeneration means a lot on a 88 AP unit. On the other hand with regeneration is risky...and it becomes riskier and riskier as wounds will lower your WIL, to the point that when you are at 30 HP i won't even bother to cast it (cast will be counted with a -2 WIL as your health will go to 20).

so I assembled quickly a lion company...i just put in what i think are the best units lion has.

my comp is the following:

1x valk lvl 2 with favorable auspices (still wonder why i do not see them played more often =/ )
2x archers with accuracy (one with double shot one with aim)
2x swordsmen parry and taunt
2x lion of war with mobile
1x sparkling

3 matches, 3 victories...beside one where my opponent conceded after a 10 KM hitting aim shot, the other 2 matches were dominated and did not even put too much effort.

Swordsmen are a powerhouse with lions of war and taunt. If you still think they need a buff please use them with taunt which for some reasons is super underutilized or simply used wrong. They offer you a win-win situation with it: if the enemy hits them then is focusing on a 30 AP unit if it hits something else it will have -3 acc and -3 dam, which is so huge and relevant to protect the other units. All in all...please DO NOT buff them. They are already good.

Archers are OP as hell as i always thought. Try divine favor + favorable auspices...a nice ACC 31. You can perform even the craziest shot reliably on the other side of the map. If the enemy has an expensive unit worth 100+ AP , especially if melee...it will be dead meat so quickly it is not even fun. Lion archers compared to ANY other ranged units are from another galaxy. The damage output is out hand and it should be nerfed (i see accuracy as the nr.1 culprit).

Valkyrie is still very good but i saw it much much less often. Even after the nerf it is still very good. Also...to all the lion players which love to use mages...do you realize favorable auspices gives you +40% casting chance? For god's sake it should be an auto include into any mage-based comp as you can take recovery and have 100%+ cast chance...more mana + nearly impossible to fail spells = super damage. All in all...they are fine as they are altough maybe the combat tree might need to be a bit more appealing (i blame counterattack mechanic mostly as if you take it you are forced to go lvl 4 and investing too many AP into a valk is not very appealing imo)

Sparkling: great even without a mage or the healing. Nuff' said.

Lion of war: i wish fangs would be as cool as this guy. It is the assault unit which protects himself the best. You do not even need to invest into sneak attack because you can use the stance (+10 PAR) or you simply attack a taunted creature. The wolven hunter is garbage compared to it. I could care less about higher damage if it dies so quickly. All in all i think it is ok the only problem is the wolven hunter which makes gargoyle and lion look OP in comparison.


totally unrelated but i forgot to add it: wolven lonewolf's mortification difficulty should be lowered. You can't expect players to take mastery of the arcana for a warrior that goes in melee. Those 10 hp every turn without regeneration means a lot on a 88 AP unit. On the other hand with regeneration is risky...and it becomes riskier and riskier as wounds will lower your WIL, to the point that when you are at 30 HP i won't even bother to cast it (cast will be counted with a -2 WIL as your health will go to 20).

Not trying to be a prick or anything but to me you sound more and more like you have a agenda. You like Wolfs, we get it but do you realise Humans have been nerfed the most in the past months?. 3 matches in a very slow weekend is not a good enough sample to say anything at all, tell us the names of the players and what companies they had, if they made any misstakes, any other observation.

Wolfs were the powerhouse of this game for a long time and that lasted for a while, now I also think they are on the weak side but do you realise how hard is to balance wolfs? They have 2 attacks and they can move the most of all other units, they have good enough fear (hell... even a Lonewolf feared my Knight of the Lion last night). It is simple you are asking for a buff to Wolfs and a nerf for Humans that sounds like you are lost and have no idea what will happen, you first buff Wolfs, if they are still on the weak side, you buff them again after 2 weeks of data, if they are to powerfull then you nerf them a bit and this is not even the proper way to do it but if they buff Wolfs and nerf Humans, who knows what will happend to the general balance of the game it self, maybe Undeads become the powerhouse and you will ask for a nerf for them too? Come on.

It is simple, Humans are fine as they are in my opinion and so are Undeads, the only thing that's left is to balance Wolfs. We want new races as soon as possible don't we?.
All this came after they took away the running movement after casting from the warrior/monk-casters, raised the cost of the xbow by too much from 38 to 57 and made the cost of the Worg make it almost useless for 400. We don't want Wolfs to destroy the other 2 races and we don't want them to be too weak to compete but balancing them seems to be the hardest thing to do.

Give the devs some time to come up with something but please, oh please stop the nerf talk, it just drives me crazy. Nerfing every 2 weeks is no way to make a game work. We are already on the low side of players and I sure as hell don't want to see more of them leave.

DB - play Vs Malice or Skydancers ram (or mine) and we will see ;p

@ soulcollector: i agree totally that three games are not a good sample but on my side i can always say i played enough games against them. I stated the numbers of games i played with them for this reason and i also stated that most lion units are fine if you noticed. My only complain was towards the lion ranged unit which is frankly in my opinion too strong mostly due to the accuracy talent. Their high damage output is reflected negatively especially on wolven because one offensive stance on your 170 AP PoB is enough to remove half of his health and unfortunately it is not so easy to be always under a cover. This is not seen particularly on ram or lion as they usually have more units and more expendable ones. Losing even a fang at the very start of the game it is a big hit to your damage output.

since you asked the victories were vs 2 ram players (top 20-30) and 1 lion player (top 10).

@DW: feel free to toss me an invite if you see me in game I will ask also my friend skydancer. Oh and im not claiming lions are unbeatable (nor i am ).

@ soulcollector: i agree totally that three games are not a good sample but on my side i can always say i played enough games against them. I stated the numbers of games i played with them for this reason and i also stated that most lion units are fine if you noticed. My only complain was towards the lion ranged unit which is frankly in my opinion too strong mostly due to the accuracy talent. Their high damage output is reflected negatively especially on wolven because one offensive stance on your 170 AP PoB is enough to remove half of his health and unfortunately it is not so easy to be always under a cover. This is not seen particularly on ram or lion as they usually have more units and more expendable ones. Losing even a fang at the very start of the game it is a big hit to your damage output.

You are probably right about the Accurasy Talent by it self. I mean, honestly if you have ever used a level 1 Human Archer you would have notice they are not exactly OP compared to the cost of an Undead Archer. Thing is, Human Archers do not have Ferocious, if we take Accuracy away from them, how will that archer be able to do damage to units like Flesh Golem or Skull Warrior with Hard Boiled or Knight of the Lion just to name a few, an archer level 1 has a mediocre output damage and at level 2 they do less damage to this units I named than an Undead or Wolf archer with Ferocious, to be able to do more damage than the other archers you need Accuracy and Aim making his total cost be 63 AP, Xbow level 2 with Ferocious costs 66 AP and Skeleton Archer with Ferocious cost 40 AP, if you want to go with Double Shot the archer will hit more time than a Skeleton Archer with Double Shot due to Human sinergy and his +2 Accuracy over the Skeleton Archer but will do less damage overall due to the fact that he only has +3 damage per shot and not a complete 6 damage per shot if the damage per shot is lower than 6, an Xbow with Ferocious and Harassment will be 76 AP and he will not only be able to do 6 damage per shot but he will be able to live longer due to the fact that he wont end his turn at melee range to die next turn but he will shot at -3 Acc.

So the biggest difference I see is that a Human Archer does more damage than the other archers to normal units and that is what makes him look OP in your eyes but it depends of the situation and what the enemy is playing. If you want to change something about the Human Archer then lets take away Accuracy and put Ferocious in its place but I garantee you, that a Human Archer that does 6 damage per shot with double shot will destroy Heavy units with High physical resistance, or 9 damage with Aim to the heavy units with out needing any Human sinergy at all but he won't be able to move from his spot to use Aim so he will probably die in 2 turns if he keeps using it.

So, how do we fix him? Remember that they already have 2 less damage than a Wolfen Crossbow, 1 less damage than Skeleton Archer, 1 less Tou than both Wolfen Archer and Undead Archer and that Human Swormen can't have Ferocious like the other races foot soldiers. How can Humans kill a Flesh Golem or a Worg with Hard Boiled before they get slaughtered.

as i said before many times - Alahan archer is not more cost effective than Acheron...
and in most cases two lev 1 skellys with bow are more universal than one alahan bowman lev 2 (3 can be eqal but easier to kill mostly). In case of ram archers i really like taking them to or close to combat when they can have 90%+ to hit or even gain and generate encircling bonus.

as i said before many times - Alahan archer is not more cost effective than Acheron...
and in most cases two lev 1 skellys with bow are more universal than one alahan bowman lev 2 (3 can be evual but easier to kill mostly). In case of ram archers i really like taking them to or close to combat when they can have 90%+ to hit or even gain and generate encircling bonus.

I think pretty much the same thing and actually do the same also XD.

Ok lets compare ferocious vs accuracy.

ferocious costs 9 AP and its uses are so limited (golem, HB SW, KOTL, HB worg - 6 instead of 5). Beside the golem i would say i never really felt it was a necessary addition to kill the above units and im talking about ram and wolf.

accuracy is 11 AP and it is effective ALWAYS no matter the target. 3 points difference? balanced right? Yes you need it for the golem (4 damage) but just for that - assuming you have no other way to deal with it (scourge of the impure cough cough) . I agree it should stay but is the cost correct? It is either ferocious or accuracy that has a wrong cost. The fact that all lion players (myself included) go for accuracy without a second thought does it make it well costed in your opinion? Cost wise it is so good that elusive, which is very good, is not even considered. Ok sharpshooter is silly mostly for the AP but even if it would cost less i would still go for accuracy.

and also about lion archer vs ram...MOV 4 and MOV 3 is a huge difference as the ACC. Often the skeleton archer (which are a good unit, dont get me wrong) will end up doing less total damage than the bowman simply because they will miss more. I wouldn't make a comparison however as both are good unit with plus and downsides.


ps: the test goes on, so far 6 out of 6. The rockstar? accuracy lion archers

Ok lets compare ferocious vs accuracy.

ferocious costs 9 AP and its uses are so limited (golem, HB SW, KOTL, HB worg - 6 instead of 5). Beside the golem i would say i never really felt it was a necessary addition to kill the above units and im talking about ram and wolf.

accuracy is 11 AP and it is effective ALWAYS no matter the target. 3 points difference? balanced right? Yes you need it for the golem (4 damage) but just for that - assuming you have no other way to deal with it (scourge of the impure cough cough) . I agree it should stay but is the cost correct? It is either ferocious or accuracy that has a wrong cost. The fact that all lion players (myself included) go for accuracy without a second thought does it make it well costed in your opinion? Cost wise it is so good that elusive, which is very good, is not even considered. Ok sharpshooter is silly mostly for the AP but even if it would cost less i would still go for accuracy.

and also about lion archer vs ram...MOV 4 and MOV 3 is a huge difference as the ACC. Often the skeleton archer (which are a good unit, dont get me wrong) will end up doing less total damage than the bowman simply because they will miss more. I wouldn't make a comparison however as both are good unit with plus and downsides.


ps: the test goes on, so far 6 out of 6. The rockstar? accuracy lion archers

Ok so, in your opinion what do we do to the +2 damage Wolfen Crossbow got over Human Archers and if move 3 vs 4 move is huge then what do we do with move 3 vs move 5?. The balance is there right now, the difference? Human Archer level 2 is usable in more situations than other archers. Why? because Human's foot soldiers are not as good as the other Races for damage dealing.

Honestly Accuracy has been there for 4 months and you are telling me you just noticed this past 2 weeks that the Human Archer is OP?

The past nerfs Humans have had in the past forced every Human player to over use Human Archers, that is the only reason you are noticing it more now. You take Accuracy away from them and you completely break them.

The increase of Wolfen Crossbow from 38 AP to 57 AP is the real issue here, Wolfen Crossbow in my opinion should cost 52 at level 1 making it 61 with Ferocious and 71 with Harassment or 55 with Instintive Firing and 65 with Harassment.

Or better yet due to the fact that they have 10 Fear, 9 Tou and Move 5 lets make it cost 48 AP but take 2 damage from them and make them be 8 Damage like the Human Archer. I don't think anyone would like that, what I know for a fact is that when Wolfen Archers were 38 AP people over used them like there was no tomorrow and Wolfs were king.

Even if right now you think Ferocious is not good enough, what do we know of how will the other races be when they come out, maybe more new units will make it powerful, the only thing I know right now is that the devs know things we don't and I'm pretty sure they don't want to rebalance the whole game every time they introduce a new Race instead of just balancing the new Race.