How are wolven doing?

[Jigoku]

To Deep Blue :
Thanks for the thread. Most of the points you made were very valid and interesting.

Though I think that there are some points about the Crossbowman that you didn't take into account:

First, they have a MOV of 6. Which makes them the fastest ranged units in the game.
Well you might have overlooked it because it does not look like a "primary" characteristic, but it actually matters.
And it is taken into account for their AP cost.

Second, Fear 10 may not be much, but it allows you to be effectively immune to 50% of the Ram units fear rolls as well as a bit less than 50% of the Wolf units fear rolls. Not so bad for its AP cost if you ask me (which you don't know exactly, I guess, but I can assure you it's very low for what I just stated).

Also, sorry but your gut feeling on the Born Killer attribute for the Crossbowman was wrong.
It's a dedicated attribute that we made for him, that costs 0 AP.
Its remained here because originally every Wolfen is a born killer wheither or not they handle crossbows... and because I hoped that someday we could make melee a bit better for ranged units. Then the Crossbowman would have a way to hit twice in melee (and the AP cost of Born Killer would have been a cost for him again).
Since it's probably not the case anymore, I'm considering removing it completely to avoid further confusion.

I feel that all units are calculated by something like that - and its terribly wrong... AP of units in battle games can't be counted by algorithm that simply adds X for skill Y... this way game will never be balanced
All units should have their AP values made by human not by simple algoritm that don't thing about usefulness.

Like Legulysse said, that's not how it works here, so there is no problem at all.

This is classic developer mistake. they change a whole mechanics that was perfect just to nerf one race overpowered composition.

It was never intended for them to be played the "Harassment" way at all, so we fixed that.
The main reason why we wanted the "hybrid" casters to cast then move and/or attack, was to be able to buff themselves or their allies, or debuff enemy units, and then still act on their activation.
It was never meant to cast blasts then chicken out. Kiting damage should be the Crossbowman and ranged units territory.
So no, the whole mechanic was far from "perfect".

Now every warrior|monk|mage in the game was underpowered and have bad mechanics.

Could you provide more detail about why the Black Paladin, Chimera, Valkyrie, Lonewolf, and Rune Guardian are underpowered right now?

Thanks for these clarifications. I did indeed forgot about MOV when comparing but you also forgot that the MOV is not 6 but 5 so just 1 more than our beloved lion archers. I believe that MOV is becoming slightly less relevant when the maps are smaller (mind you, not useless just not as good as with big maps)

thanks Legu and Jigoku for clarying how AP are handled, sorry to have doubted

but i do not get one of your statement, jigoku:

"Second, Fear 10 may not be much, but it allows you to be effectively immune to 50% of the Ram units fear rolls as well as well as a bit less than 50% of the Wolf units fear rolls. Not so bad for its AP cost if you ask me (which you don't know exactly, I guess, but I can assure you it's very low for what I just stated)."

wait...the fear roll is calculated on the unit's fear level instead of WIL? Is this a typo? because Wolven hunters are often feared ( base WIL 5 ... worse than fang WIL!) even though they have fear 11.

For the records, im trying now a wolven comp with 2xcrossbowmen (lvl3) 1x runeguardian lvl 4 3x fangs lvl 2 as i really believe 6 is the magic number for wolven (4 units is rubbish, really). I'll keep you posted about my results.


about warrior-mages/monks, wolven got the biggest hit (but i agree with the changes) as the other don't have offensive casting (beside occult erosion). I was thinking that you could swap coscience and scourge: magicians for a talent (appropriately costed) that allows to bring back the magic of casting+sprint. In this way only players who really invest their AP can have a very good unit and you are preventing 5-6 casting and running dudes. As of now, i see really no need (maybe beside for Focus on the lonewolf) to go on the lvl 5 tier - beside coscience for lonewolf? for a unit that goes often in melee and for 30 AP? really? .

Also you did not touch too much wolven elites (GG and PoB) which are valid units but not worth it at high levels (which is a shame as they can go up to lvl 5!). What are the devs opinion on that matter? it is intended that at the 400 AP brackets players shouldn't have high AP elite units - as legendaries?

wait...the fear roll is calculated on the unit's fear level instead of WIL? Is this a typo? because Wolven hunters are often feared ( base WIL 5 ... worse than fang WIL!) even though they have fear 11.

But unit wont test WILL against enemy with FEAR same or equal.
So Wolfen Hunter will be Scared by Lion or Gargoyle but never for Skelly or Fang.

Like Legulysse said, that's not how it works here, so there is no problem at all.

Ok
My suspicion came from some not intended unit cos changes between biger patches

errr...where is this written about fear and WIL? i just checked tooltip and there is not written this.

errr...where is this written about fear and WIL? i just checked tooltip and there is not written this.

i cant check from work once again
but try to check rules of FEAR and when its tested - there is no description that unit with lower FEAR makes the test ?

btw
IMO the thing that needs first fix - is changing old King of the Hill map (Lanevar?) by adding more hard Covers and another (one hex) patch by the middla bushes.

Wolfen would be great (or much better) on maps with many good covers like acheron - but bigger - with gaps of 3 not 2 hexes (2 hex can ble blocked by one necro in one activation).

Currently they are balanced on old DM map (Behemoth?) but on Acheron are to easy to block and to easy to shoot off on Lanevar?

[Legulysse]

But unit wont test WILL against enemy with FEAR same or equal.

Exactly. A fear roll is based on WIL vs FEAR, but will only trigger if the FEAR level is strictly superior.
I recently started to work on a recap page of all basic formulas, I will include details for the Fear mechanics.

But unit wont test WILL against enemy with FEAR same or equal.

Exactly. A fear roll is based on WIL vs FEAR, but will only trigger if the FEAR level is strictly superior.
I recently started to work on a recap page of all basic formulas, I will include details for the Fear mechanics.

please add also less confusing tooltips in game...this information really surprised me :O well i guess there is always something new to learn.

so wait a second a crossbowman (fear 10 but lower WIL) vs a skeleton warrior (fear 10) will always pass the test, regardless of the crossbowman WIL?

[Legulysse]

so wait a second a crossbowman (fear 10 but lower WIL) vs a skeleton warrior (fear 10) will always pass the test, regardless of the crossbowman WIL?

Yes, that's the idea. The trigger for the test is independent from the stats used for the test itself.

I play wolfen every week pretty much exclusively and one thing i will say is that i have very few losses in eliminate VIP mode. I think it's been weeks since i last lost a vip match to anyone. Wolfen are really good at pushing through to the VIP and taking him out very early on, it's only against other wolfen do i really need to worry about the other units on the field.

I think my major issues has been trying to pack variety into such a small amount of ap to the point of; if i try to counter a possible legendaries setup i will be significantly hampered if the opponent is using a larger group of enemies and vice versa. I personally find the wolfen crossbowmen hard to justify putting in any of my compositions. I've found them particularly difficult to get a good shot against opponents without them being able to move in on the crossbowmen very quickly. Maybe if they could counter at melee range, or if they had elusive/prudent movement so you could safely retreat them back when they get into trouble and attack/move another unit in to block the enemy advance. Heck prudent movement would be a whole lot more useful than either of their current abilities i would say.

And alot more useful on wolfen crossbowmen than the hunter. Another unit i don't really use anymore because he's just too fragile to be worth it. At best he's an archer killer and as much as archers can be plentiful he can only really succeed at it when any other melee unit could do his job just as well (when there are no melee units around) Maybe if he had improved fear rolls or Howl that could go someway to fixing him as right now he's a glass cannon with plenty of glass and not much cannon. What might fit his discription better i guess is if he had an ability than let him attack after running(full movement) even if he can only use that ability once that would atleast give him a bit more of an edge over other melee units when it comes to taking out archers. He really is a hard sell when you compare him to a gargoyle who not only posses better talents but also higher stats and lower ap cost to boot.

ok so this week i play wolfen - but first i need to make new company