we need a motivation to play 800 ap matches!

right now there is no real motivation to play 800 ap matches besides to level up your units since the ladder is only tracking 400 ap games..

i think that if 800 ap matches were tracked on the same ladder (or a separate one) the queue times would go down and it would add variation to the game and add a not-so-gimmicky use for chimera/worg/golem.

We need motivation to play the game....

Yeah. The usual motivation for playing games - fun - isn't there to be had.

well can you atleast elaborate on why you don't enjoy the game?

i agree with you to some extend especially after the last patch because of the ap value changes and the fact that there isnt a ram army in top 15, but atleast list some reasons... you arent contributing at all....

I was being ironic. Or perhaps postironic.

Grinding ducats (or running the Indefinite Microtransaction Treadmill) is not fun. I don't want to work (i.e. grind) to play a game. I don't mind giving Cyanide money in exchange for entertainment, but I don't want to pay more dollars (or more hours) every time I want to try a new comp.

I'd love to play 800 AP games. I don't want rewards for it. I just want to have fun, and 800 AP sounds like fun. But I don't want to slog through 30 hours of repetitive gameplay with a suboptimal warband for the right to have fun at the end.

Unfortunately it looks like Cyanide will be sticking with their bizarre F2P model rather than moving to a more sensible traditional payment system, so I guess I'll be skipping this game.

I was being ironic. Or perhaps postironic.

Grinding ducats (or running the Indefinite Microtransaction Treadmill) is not fun. I don't want to work (i.e. grind) to play a game. I don't mind giving Cyanide money in exchange for entertainment, but I don't want to pay more dollars (or more hours) every time I want to try a new comp.

I'd love to play 800 AP games. I don't want rewards for it. I just want to have fun, and 800 AP sounds like fun. But I don't want to slog through 30 hours of repetitive gameplay with a suboptimal warband for the right to have fun at the end.

Unfortunately it looks like Cyanide will be sticking with their bizarre F2P model rather than moving to a more sensible traditional payment system, so I guess I'll be skipping this game.

I wouldn't call it a bizarre F2P model, more like the industry standard F2P model. You say you don't mind to pay for entertainment but that you don't want to pay every time you want to try a new composition. What you are saying is that you want to pay once and have everything? I think this is possible if you buy enough Cyan's to purchase everything they have, even a few times. I don't know how much that would cost, but it is a possibility.

A full membership that unlocks everything, is something that could be implemented in this type of F2P model, but it is not the norm. If they did, it would most likely be a monthly charge as well and not a one time fee, since the game is ever expanding. It's like the airlines in the 1970's who sold fly free for life tickets and are now kicking themselves in the butt for it.

I think, with the type of game they are making (Multiplayer Online Battles), the F2P model they are using, is the best choice and the most popular for this style of game.

I understand that you may not like it and everyone is open to their opinions, but I feel the Cyanide has made the right choice.

In my opinion, some of the subtleties could be changed, like the Renown limit to purchase units and an item the you can purchase with Cyan's to upgrade a unit one level. But all in all, it think they are going in the right direction.

Just like yours though, this is only my opinion.

[Jigoku]

In my opinion, some of the subtleties could be changed, like the Renown limit to purchase units and an item the you can purchase with Cyan's to upgrade a unit one level. But all in all, it think they are going in the right direction.

We are working on ways to change that.
We are already working on removing the Renown limit for units as soon as possible
The idea of an item upgrading a unit by one level has been discussed for a long time now - not everyone in the team agrees on how we should make this item, if we were to make it at all. Thanks for your ideas though.

In my opinion, some of the subtleties could be changed, like the Renown limit to purchase units and an item the you can purchase with Cyan's to upgrade a unit one level. But all in all, it think they are going in the right direction.

We are working on ways to change that.
We are already working on removing the Renown limit for units as soon as possible
The idea of an item upgrading a unit by one level has been discussed for a long time now - not everyone in the team agrees on how we should make this item, if we were to make it at all. Thanks for your ideas though.

i think the renown level for units is a bit weird as ducats already make a natural "level" constraint... Even if legendaries would be available from the beginning no new player would be able to afford them (other than cyans). The level up item could be simply a quest where each unit (no matter the type) has a chance of 50% (or so). Right now the quest that makes you "level" your unit is terrible as only elites have a chance while sometimes you would be happy to level also your other units.

I wouldn't call it a bizarre F2P model, more like the industry standard F2P model.

I suppose my issue is that right now, ducats serve no gameplay purpose - and, in fact, work against fun gameplay.

It would be one thing if I was subjected to some external optimization challenge - if I had, say, 50,000 ducats to spend on the best army I could think of, or if my ability to earn ducats was somehow restricted. They'd work beautifully in a single-player RPG-style campaign. (But if the game's supposed to be an RPG, I want the option to name and color my troops for free. That sort of customization is SOP for RPGs.)

As it stands, ducats are just a barrier to fun. Getting the money is not a challenge - in theory I could just play the training missions for days on end - but until I get that money, I won't have the army I want. I won't have fun.

Obviously ducats serve a meta-game purpose - to encourage me to buy Cyans. I'd just as soon dispense with the run-around.

What you are saying is that you want to pay once and have everything?

Yes. Access to all units (for no additional cost) is a minimum. Preferably, I'd be able to set their level freely as well (as XP is just another grind). Cosmetic adjustments would presumably remain as RMT options, for reasons I touch on below.

I think this is possible if you buy enough Cyan's to purchase everything they have, even a few times. I don't know how much that would cost, but it is a possibility.

Given the other limitations present (number of companies, and a finite number of slots in each company) this isn't really the case. I can only hold, what, 13? 14? units if I buy up all the slots for a company? That's not enough to combine and recombine.

Players are already having to delete units and companies on which they've spent a great deal of time or money to make room for new ones, and we're not even out of beta.

A full membership that unlocks everything, is something that could be implemented in this type of F2P model, but it is not the norm. If they did, it would most likely be a monthly charge as well and not a one time fee, since the game is ever expanding.

There are dozens of ways to ensure a steady revenue stream. Selling cosmetic options for RMT is an option used by everyone these days (TF2, LoL, and GW2 are exemplars). Selling new factions for money as "expansions" is another strategy.

I think, with the type of game they are making (Multiplayer Online Battles), the F2P model they are using, is the best choice and the most popular for this style of game. I understand that you may not like it and everyone is open to their opinions, but I feel the Cyanide has made the right choice.

The question is likely moot, as I doubt Cyanide is going to change their payment model this late in development.

LoL and similar titles under the awkward "MOBA" heading are apples-and-oranges comparisons here. In DOW, your access to gameplay options is limited by time and money, and these choices are persistent and fundamental to the gameplay; in typical MOBAs, players receive a full or almost-full range of options from the beginning, and access to the full scope of options does not change the fundamentals of the game.

I could go into specifics, but I'm tired of talking about this. Here's what it comes down to (your tl;dr):

In Guild Wars 2, I can say "My Guardian is boring. I want to try a poison-specced Thief today", and have the character ready to rock in about 5 minutes. (As an added bonus, I can customize his name and appearance for free!) In Starcraft, I can change my race and build order on a whim, queue up, and go. There are no critical pieces of the gameplay experience that are behind grinds or paywalls after I've purchased the game.

In DOW, I might say "Wolfen are getting repetitive. What about a faith-heavy Acheron list?" and all I have to look forward to is a 30-hour grind. That's no fun. Or I could drop a few dollars ... and a few dollars more, every time I want to try something new. That's also no fun.

Since I play games to have fun, DOW isn't very appealing.

Would a $20 price tag turn off some people? Maybe, but if they can't afford that, they aren't likely to engage in RMT anyway, so the opportunity cost to Cyanide is nil. And a traditional payment model doesn't preclude a free-to-play demo with some options turned off.

You have some good points there. I wonder how the game will be if ducats are removed or/and used only for cosmetic purposes. Hell...i would like to see the game as you described with no injuries and all units/levels available for free and i would pay between 10 and 15 euros without even thinking as a fixed price to play the game as long as all the content, minus the cosmetic things can be for free (i would even pay the expansions if around 5 euros!). I really wonder how much this system currently is paying off for them. The real shame at the moment is that i believe (since the very beginning) that this game has huge potential and is not getting the attention it deserves, partially because of the terrible open beta beginning that scared lot of people (insane injuries + continous delays big mistake from their side which probably made them lose right away some good chunk of players) and partially because cyanide's advertising and communication is not really top notch on Steam (which should be their MAIN advertising channel). I admit i cry a bit inside when i see that other much inferior f2p are getting more attention than this gem.