How are wolven doing?

that they believe that wolven aren't worth it

Because what can be easier for play than 5 archers for Lions and 5 archers and 5 skellys?
Last patch it was 5 Fangs + 5 crossbows played exacly by the same guy

and all this is wrong - when it was fixed for Fangs nao its broken for other mono builds... but nerfing another lion unit wont solve this

the main joke is that two patches ago mass skeletons or mass archers bands was even cheaper to make but was nicely countered by spark bombs... now when one counter is gone - pure lameness is even more popular...

BTW - as i said before - Crossbowmans should get boost to their STR (or old 0.9 Accurate instead Feriocious with slight cost reduction at lev1) instead of Feriocious that looks realy werid on them

also their old Assault Fire "bug" allowing pursuit movement after kill (with second-hth hit) was IMO quite resonable and interesting - without that this skill seems not exactly competitive for 10 ap

BTW - as i said before - Crossbowmans should get boost to their STR (or old 0.9 Accurate instead Feriocious with slight cost reduction at lev1) instead of Feriocious that looks realy werid on them

also their old Assault Fire "bug" allowing pursuit movement after kill (with second-hth hit) was IMO quite resonable and interesting - without that this skill seems not exactly competitive for 10 ap

Crossbowmen should have their base AP adjusted. I'm fine with lion archers being very good, especially with ACC but DAM shouldn't be their strong point. This gets especially ridicolous when lvl 2 lion archer with ACCURACY costs less than a crossbowman level 1. I mean really? Explain me why this base cost is justified.

Lion archer lvl 2 with accuracy vs lvl 1 crossbowmen

AP cost 53 vs 57 --> lion wins
ACC 11 vs ACC 9 --> Lion wins
PAR 5 vs PAR 5 --> even
DOD 10 vs DOD 9 --> lion wins
DAM 8 (+3 to all damage rolls) vs 10 --> lion wins (accuracy not only deals more damage but it is even useful vs high TOU creatures!)
TOU 7 vs TOU 8 --> WOLVEN WINS!!
WIL 8 vs WIL 7 --> lion wins (plus it even has better fear rolls!)

racial abilities: bravery vs fear (10) + born killer (lol?) --> lion wins...fear on ranged, especially at 10 is like not having it..more or less like born killer

so all in all....lion archer lvl 2 with accuracy >>>>> lvl 1 crossbowmen AND it costs less AP. My gut feeling is that cyanide counted the AP for born killer - which is not used.

Oh and i could compare it also with 2x lvl 1 skeleton archers but that would be overkill for the poor single crossbowman (yeah they cost just 5 more AP than 1 crossbowman with 1 point less of DAM - and i think you can easily make a choice)

accuracy not only deals more damage but it is even useful vs high TOU creatures!

hows that ?
it not scourge

racial abilities: bravery vs fear (10) + born killer (lol?) --> lion wins...fear on ranged, especially at 10 is like not having it..more or less like born killer

not exactly see the point in this compartment

I'm fine with lion archers being very good, especially with ACC but DAM shouldn't be their strong point.

Lev 1 archer have lower STR thatn lev 1 skeleton bowman...

My gut feeling is that cyanide counted the AP for born killer - which is not used.

I feel that all units are calculated by something like that - and its terribly wrong... AP of units in battle games can't be counted by algorithm that simply adds X for skill Y... this way game will never be balanced
All units should have their AP values made by human not by simple algoritm that don't thing about usefulness.

accuracy not only deals more damage but it is even useful vs high TOU creatures!

hows that ?
it not scourge

last time i checked, it behaves like bloodlust which is effectively scourge: all.

This means that they do 4 DAM vs the golem instead of 1

EDIT: confirmed --> accuracy = bloodlust for ranged or scourge. The reason why they have different names is because they can stack this way.

EDIT2:

i'm comparing lvl 2 archer with accuracy vs lvl 1 crossbowman simply because their AP cost is nearly the same and it shows how overcosted is the base level of the crossbowman

bravery is simply better than fear because: fear 10 is often irrelevant PLUS you must be in melee for it - as a ranged. Not suffering fear is quite important as the lion archer if unfeared can often hit without disengaging.

last time i checked, it behaves like bloodlust which is effectively scourge: all.
This means that they do 4 DAM vs the golem instead of 1

When i checked last time both AIM and Accurate wasn't so good ;p
but i dont checked it for some patches

i'm comparing lvl 2 archer with accuracy vs lvl 1 crossbowman simply because their AP cost is nearly the same and it shows how overcosted is the base level of the crossbowman

bravery is simply better than fear because: fear 10 is often irrelevant PLUS you must be in melee for it - as a ranged. Not suffering fear is quite important as the lion archer if unfeared can often hit without disengaging.

- But if you want to compare best Level (Alahan archers are easiest to use at lev 2) with worst Level (without harassment or instinctive) the compartment difference will be bigger than real one

- But bravery is useless (and WILL BE) Vs all factions without FEAR... while FEAR would be nice Vs all actions without bravery or undead abbilities.

and once again - you should argue with someone else - while im really for adding some STR instead ferocious to the Wolfen Crossbowmans.
btw - in 0.9 Crossbowman had better ranges than Lion archer ... im not sure how its now.

last time i checked, it behaves like bloodlust which is effectively scourge: all.
This means that they do 4 DAM vs the golem instead of 1

When i checked last time both AIM and Accurate wasn't so good ;p

this is because you read wrong the tooltip.

there is a huge difference between DAM (the unit's value ) and (raw) damage (the final damage you inflict).

please any devs correct me if im wrong but here is an example:

- a skill that adds +3 damage (bloodlust, scourge, accuracy) means that after the normal DAM vs TOU calculation a result of +3 is added on the final result.
-a skill that adds +3 DAM (like aim) simply increases the unit's statistic by +3 vs TOU and it doesnt add anything to the result.


This means the following:
- bloodlust, scourge, accuracy act as mini ferocious dealing always 4 damage as minimum (1 minimum damage + 3 damage added to the result)
- +DAM skill are useless if the unit still has an insane amount of TOU

i hope i'm clear

- Warrior monks/mages mobility is heavily nerfed. This is good as before it was really crazy but it severely diminished the power of lonewolf and rune guardian.

This is classic developer mistake. they change a whole mechanics that was perfect just to nerf one race overpowered composition.

They just had to change AP and skill of wolfen warrior monk and all would be ok. Now every warrior|monk|mage in the game was underpowered and have bad mechanics.

The true strenght of the old composition is the ability of Wolfen to use damage spell on every of their caster and the powerfull melee strenght. I would just remove a damage spell from guardian of the runes and nerf melee ability, ap cost of those unit.

I'd like to chime in to say that, for what it's worth, I think I totally agree with DeepBlue's assessment - especially regarding crossbowmen. I haven't been playing for a while, but when I played a lot I tried to stubbornly use 2-3 cross for many matches, and - my being bad aside - it was really difficult to see their worth. Now, if that would be compatible with their TT version, I think they should simply have a lower AP cost (I'd prefer it to boosting their DAM, since the latter doesn't seem much realistic in my opinion).

[Legulysse]

- a skill that adds +3 damage (bloodlust, scourge, accuracy) means that after the normal DAM vs TOU calculation a result of +3 is added on the final result.
-a skill that adds +3 DAM (like aim) simply increases the unit's statistic by +3 vs TOU and it doesnt add anything to the result.

That's right.

My gut feeling is that cyanide counted the AP for born killer - which is not used.

I feel that all units are calculated by something like that - and its terribly wrong... AP of units in battle games can't be counted by algorithm that simply adds X for skill Y... this way game will never be balanced.
All units should have their AP values made by human not by simple algoritm that don't thing about usefulness.

The born-killer case for crossbowmen is handled
We indeed have some algorithm to help us having a base cost estimation, but everything is tweaked by human hands.