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Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

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Hod

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Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostMon Mar 24, 2014 5:19 pm

I am curious if anyone enjoys playing AGAINST a Flesh Golem?

I hear people trying to convince people that he's possible to kill (theoretically if you have the exact right set up and lots of luck). I hear people talk about how they just give up immediately against him (really not a good sign).

In my opinion, he is way too OP and really no fun at all to play against. I understand why people just give up. It's an uphill battle to beat him where you have to play 100% perfectly and the opponent (with the Golem) lumbers around like a retarded first grader - an usually wins. He makes you want to play like a coward and just run and play for the draw, just to stick to the person who plays him (because you don't feel like it's fair).

So, I was just curious if anyone actually enjoys facing a Flesh Golem? Not playing with (I know everyone loves this - and I understand why). Let's keep this topic to just playing against Golems. No Golem fanatics talking about how he's not OP or how he can be beat - strictly what you experience when you are playing against one.
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Almanro

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostMon Mar 24, 2014 6:50 pm

Golem lvl4 was OP also before last patch, now it also costs like 30-40AP less, so it is even more OP at lvl4 and it has become OP also at lvl3. I'm not playing with it anymore since the first few days of the last patch when my Golem lvl 4 scored like 11 wins, 1 draw and 1 lost without having to do anything more than run and engage the enemy, with more AP for supporting units to lose I had only to suicide myself hurring to finish the game sooner, and also in the case I chose a suicide attack I won about 3 matches out of 5.

Both Chimera and Golem lvl 4 need a little nerf. (I don't think the Worg needs it, since his TOU is so low that if you play carefully, i.e. keep your units ouside his pursue range, you can win against it at least in 50% of the cases. If he seems too strong now, it is more due to the Tiny Maps/ Invisible Walls that allow him to pursue more easily the enemy)
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Deep Blue

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostMon Mar 24, 2014 8:11 pm

as a wolf player i do not enjoy it as ive really too few options BUT i managed to kill it (it even had HB!) by switching to a company specifically done to kill it. Often in dominion map it finishes as a draw...because...HOW CAN YOU KILL A GOLEM IN 3 TURNS and score points at the same time? even if engaged the golem usually manages to bring enough points to make it a draw. As ram life is a bit easier but still at dominion the best shot is a draw.

my issue is that:

- dominion = draw vs golem almost guaranteed.
- VIP = victory vs golem is very likely.
- Deathmatch = loss vs golem if not playing with good counters. I feel sometimes it is a bit RNG dependand the outcome. Ie: failing exausting touch twice in a row -> probably dead pala / surround it with 5 wolven and having your scourge:living dead GG die in two hits with 30/40% -> good luck. Same is applied when you have your UBER fang warrior with ferocious which 99.9% of the time is feared and missess 2-3 offensive stance hits ( it had 75% hit chance if i remember correctly when the golem was surrounded by 4 or 5 wolven).
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GardenOfSun

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostMon Mar 24, 2014 8:16 pm

Well, I have yet to see one of those (fairly new player here), but if, from what I gather, there's somewhat a consensus that it's a tad too strong, wouldn't a simple solution be to slightly nerf its DAM? I mean, even in lore terms a flesh golem seems something supposed to be more tanky than dpsy, and 24 DAM does seem a bit overboard anyway. Actually, when I think about that, wouldn't a major nerf in DAM (something like 4-5) and a slight buff on TOU be sensible?

I apologise if my inexperience makes me say silly things, but I'd like to hear the opinion of the pros on this.
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Deep Blue

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostMon Mar 24, 2014 9:47 pm

GardenOfSun wrote:Well, I have yet to see one of those (fairly new player here), but if, from what I gather, there's somewhat a consensus that it's a tad too strong, wouldn't a simple solution be to slightly nerf its DAM? I mean, even in lore terms a flesh golem seems something supposed to be more tanky than dpsy, and 24 DAM does seem a bit overboard anyway. Actually, when I think about that, wouldn't a major nerf in DAM (something like 4-5) and a slight buff on TOU be sensible?

I apologise if my inexperience makes me say silly things, but I'd like to hear the opinion of the pros on this.


the DAM and TOU arent the real problem in my opinion. Im fine with it being super strong and hard to kill in melee. I dont like that players can take both rapidity (+1 mov) and hardboiled (as well as mobility!) which are really no brainers when it comes to selecting the talents. Insensible (50% chance to negate spells) is also a bit random but so far there wasn't a real solution to make all players happy (some suggestions were about giving a flat -3 dam to all spells).
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GardenOfSun

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostMon Mar 24, 2014 10:32 pm

Ok, some other random ideas then; bear with me, I kind of love messing with game design. ^_^

- Change rapidity into a conditional effect (like for example you can only use it for charge), while at the same time lowering its cost or even level requirement.
- Change hard boiled to something like possessed.
- Nerfing a bit the chance for insensitive (to something like 35-40%), OR, which would be better (as it'd reduce RNG): either just give it a damage resistance against spells (something like it gets +4 TOU against them) OR a 75% chance to resist NON-damaging spells (depending on what types of effect that ability is mostly designed to impair).
- I still think its DMG sticks out a bit too much in comparison to all other legendaries, so I'd still propose we lower it 1-2 points.
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Errol Flynn

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostTue Mar 25, 2014 4:28 am

I don't like super units dominating TBS games. The Golem is far too powerful against any company not specifically designed to beat it. I am only talking DM, because the other modes are pretty poor IMO. I have played in only 1 draw, and it was me running from a golem with a wolf. I do not normally do that because I think it is poor form, in the case of the Golem giving a crap player another easy win would be poorer form.
It is slow but can and will be levelled to end up a very mobile unit. That is just silly. Combine that with small maps and often close deployments and the Golem wins.
I understand that different builds have their strengths and weaknesses but if you have to specifically build to beat a specific unit then you have a problem.
I find the worg less of a problem because it is not as tough and ruined by encirclement. Also Wolf is often thought OP because of 'born killer'. I assure you low ACC and usually quite poor base damage makes 'born killer' much more average than it sounds on most wolves. Especially when you are likely outnumbered.
I found the chimera less of a problem but lost to it with wolf. I have never really played wolf and my composition is quite poor atm, so I think that probably means it is quite killable.
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MomOw

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostThu Mar 27, 2014 4:00 pm

I don't mind a lumbering hard to kill unit with 1 attack dealing 20 damages (half HP), unless you're playing death match :roll:
I managed to get rid of them as a wolfen player with my level 1 units (3 fangs, 2 crossbow, 1 lonewolf, 1 rune guardian if I remember well)
ça manque quand même de compo chêne rouge : Syriak 2nd incarnation (invocation d'animae) + prédateurs sanglants + sentinelle wolfen + guerriers 32
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Hemata

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 2:37 am

As a player who both owns Flesh Golems and has fought against them with my regular units, I will say this. I like their existence. They are fun units, they feel good, and they're a great counter to the Wolfen who normally are capable of just overpowering your army like it's nothing.

One thing to understand is that yes, they're beatable but even then when you know you can't beat it then that's just what's going to happen. Some set-ups are better against others and this is true even without legendaries. Another thing to understand is that the ram is horrifically and pathetically weak early on. Unbelievably weak early on. Their legendary and high-leveled casters combined with their swarms of cheap units is what the Ram does. You have skeletons as meatshields and mages/priests/Paladins as the real workers. All three of the units I just mentioned are stupidly weak until about level 4+

So yes. When a Ram player is so used to getting the shit beaten out of them for their first 50 matches, and then they get their hands on a Flesh Golem which can dish out the type of pain to Wolfen that most Ram players could expect to take from their furry adversaries on their average units. It feels good, it feels ironic. It's satisfying. And that's probably 95% of the reason I used it so much as I did is because it felt good to get that kind of revenge. Now I have three pallies, all level 4+, a level 4 necromancer and a level 5 priest so I don't need to use the Golem. I can go a good match and feel like my basic units have a chance of winning me fights.
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Errol Flynn

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Re: Do you enjoying playing agasint Golems?

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 2:59 am

Hemata wrote:As a player who both owns Flesh Golems and has fought against them with my regular units, I will say this. I like their existence. They are fun units, they feel good, and they're a great counter to the Wolfen who normally are capable of just overpowering your army like it's nothing.

One thing to understand is that yes, they're beatable but even then when you know you can't beat it then that's just what's going to happen. Some set-ups are better against others and this is true even without legendaries. Another thing to understand is that the ram is horrifically and pathetically weak early on. Unbelievably weak early on. Their legendary and high-leveled casters combined with their swarms of cheap units is what the Ram does. You have skeletons as meatshields and mages/priests/Paladins as the real workers. All three of the units I just mentioned are stupidly weak until about level 4+

So yes. When a Ram player is so used to getting the shit beaten out of them for their first 50 matches, and then they get their hands on a Flesh Golem which can dish out the type of pain to Wolfen that most Ram players could expect to take from their furry adversaries on their average units. It feels good, it feels ironic. It's satisfying. And that's probably 95% of the reason I used it so much as I did is because it felt good to get that kind of revenge. Now I have three pallies, all level 4+, a level 4 necromancer and a level 5 priest so I don't need to use the Golem. I can go a good match and feel like my basic units have a chance of winning me fights.


Hey Hemata,

If you think the basic units for Ram are bad you are doing something wrong. The archers are very useful, softening allows more efficient use of melee units, they can kill units attempting to flee and soft units behind enemy melee. They are cheap and at close range they are as good as any archer. It is usually easier to use them at close range because as Ram you have good cheap blockers and your archers are more expendable than they are for the other factions.
Skeleton warriors are awesome, you really need to try some with Hard Boiled if you have not already. The Garg is very mobile and very powerful, learning how to use this unit well is a big advantage over many teams. The Black Paladin and Necro are extremely good units at any level. They can be vulnerable to enemy missile but that is the case for many units in other factions also. Necros are fragile but don't usually have to take big risks to be very useful to you. If you have played 50+ games and think Rams best bet is the Golem I think you should try the other factions, they may well suit your play style better.
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