Dogs of War Online

As we all knew they are... special. Probably all will agree on this one.
While their base features can be nice they are efficient only Vs another Lions.

So i hope that this thread will help to find a idea that will make this base Alahan unit more useful but not to strong Vs other Lions companies.

Any ideas are welcome.

Their current stats are:
ACC 10
DAM 7
PAR 11
TOU 8
DOD 8
WILL 8

AP 31
MOV 4

upgrades are:

Lev 2
2ap - Vivacity +2 DOD vs archers
2ap - Fencer +2 ACC if not attacked in melee combat
2ap - Parry +3 PAR in not activated this turn - for me its only resonable option to be honest.

Lev3
10ap - For the light* - Tou = 0, + Fierce and Feriocious.
4ap - Taunt - do this skill works as intended*?

* I fully understand the idea behind this skill (elite/legendary counter) but for this purpose ferocious is enough (i assume that fierce is added to let wounded swordsman go with offensive stance Vs Golem to deal full 12 dam... and even that way this isn't great deal to sacrifice 43ap 'hard' (because its this skill only purpose) counter to deal 12dam and die).
Compared to pure feriocious for 9ap without -8 Tou drawback (especially on bowmen or fang with 2-3 attacks) - its really really occasional skill. Maybe if drawback would be like -2 TOU or skill cost was no higher than 4 ap?
**Additionally i checked if Taunt was changed to work until next activation or until end of targeted enemy activation - but not. In my opinion intention of this skill was to work similar to deff stance - until end of swordsman next activation.

My suggestions would be:

base stats:

most important:
+3-4 DOD for base stars... they simply cant have almost the same stats like skeletons... its wrong both for gameplay (far lower TOU on swordsmans) or Lore (quite big shields). This will make swordsman quite nice counter for enemy archers and also quite good living shield for second line of units.

Same or lower initial AP cost.

also would be nice:
+1 PAR or STR or TOU ... 1 of 3

Lev2
Steadfast instead Vivacity
Skill that negates Hard Boiled (Bane Hard Boiled) instead of Fencer
Parry can stay - even with rised cost if base unit PAR would be 12

Lev3
Fixed For the Light 2-4ap or penalty reduced to -2TOU (skill can work only 1-2 turns once per game).
Fixet Taunt - duration changed to until next activation of swordsman

suggestions:
Any option for boost Swordsman STR would be nice
*Valkyrie Martial inspiration targeting also Swordsman or all melee units
*Mage Scourge of Impure changed to simple +3 from +3 or +0 depending on enemy <this spell will be really useless after other factions will appear but its not a thread to discuss about that>)
*Group Attack passive skill (at lev 2-3) Adding Swordsman +1-2 STR for any other ally swordsman (no matter level or this skill) in contact with target.

I think Lion swordsmen are a very good unit. I think parry is very good the problem is the others at lvl 2 are really just worse choices.
For The Light is not worth taking. Too situational and too expensive. I know what the devs were trying to do, it just does not really do that.
A bonus for group attacks is a great idea for a swordsman skill. It would likely raise their offensive capabilities too much when you should always use more than one anyway. They are more troops of the line than aggressors.
I thought a small passive boost (+1) to a few stats as a 3rd level ability would be a more popular choice. Like 'elite' or 'honour guard' status units.

"For the Light!" seems too expensive, but I would like to get the opinion of someone who was not afraid of its cost and tried to use it in-game. In fact, getting Fierce and Ferocious is a great advantage. Especially Fierce is very useful to block the path of enemy units and also to avoid that they can pursuit after killing the Swordman and Ferocious give you the bonus in damage also when the unit is dying.

I just played 3-4 matches against a good Acheron player that among other things, used his bowmen with Fierce to block my paths, negating the possibility to pursuit was very effective!

I agree instead that the other 2 lvl2 abilities at the moment are chosen only in very rare cases (but this is like the HB of the Skeleton warrior, who doesn't take it at 2nd lvl is only to fit it in the AP range)

Almanro wrote:"For the Light!" seems too expensive, but I would like to get the opinion of someone who was not afraid of its cost and tried to use it in-game. In fact, getting Fierce and Ferocious is a great advantage. Especially Fierce is very useful to block the path of enemy units and also to avoid that they can pursuit after killing the Swordman and Ferocious give you the bonus in damage also when the unit is dying.

I think if people were able to reset levels easily (even if only in Beta). Then I for one would be more inclined to experiment. As it is I have limited merc slots and trying something like 'For the Light' will mean that guy can fit in less compositions and probably have to be deleted at some stage if I am not happy with the trial. I then need to hire a new troop who will need to be levelled to try something else.
As it is I have already sacked quite a few levelled mercs to make relatively minor changes to a composition. It is actually quite hard for the average player to test new or different skills and strategies.
If you have played this since year dot, paid some cash or collected some prize money under questionable circumstances, then this may not seem like the biggest deal. Otherwise you just do not have the slots or resources to risk experimentation.

"For the Light!" seems too expensive, but I would like to get the opinion of someone who was not afraid of its cost and tried to use it in-game.

i always try to test any news as i see myself as active beta (closed and open) player - so i also tried For the Light.
I took only one lev 3 swordsman into my compositions but i tried this skill in any game possible (unless it was terrible idea). and:
- Fierce alone is nice on elites (with high ACC/STR) and bowmans that are one of main target of assault units.
- As for blocking patch purposes - almost all patches needs at least two units to block it (its why skeletons and puppets are so great for that)
- Feriocious is situational - maybe for Swordsman with his terrible STR it is even better than for RAM archer but its still situational and the more fragile/slower fighter - the harder is to get to its optimal target. While he have standard mov of 4... TOU 0 make him most fragile ingame unit.

so:
- You must always wait with for the light to the last activation possible. If you turn it on while Swordsman have more than 30hp - its mostly a total waste because this makes him PERFECT target for any archer (base DOD 8 - almost like skeleton) Lion/RAM/Wolfen deals 18, 19 and 20 dmg vs Tou 0 so quting 'pokemon games' its super effective. But not archers can hit him - any puppets turns from weaklings to profesional killers when they hit such swordsman.
- This means that Swordsman must wait with For the Light propably till his last turn - when he dies in suicidal atack and holds his target for a while longer.
- Fierce is nice for elites and casters but a regular unit with low base stats can only block their hex - because many unit can simply disengage without bigger risk.
- dealing any serious damage with one-time-use (tou 0 - so golem hits him for 43 dam) needs offensive stance as addition for the skill. Without offence this 43 ap unit can deal 6 dam and die... so you can count that this needs 10x43 points to counter golem like that with offense is better but its another "cost' that is payed in addition to his 43 point price.

Conclusions - swordsman with For the light can be somewhat effective only when it blocks wolfens along with lion of war - while both blocking units are fragile and enemy will feel each counterattack of lion and killing swordsman wont provide any pursuit movements. But imo blocking patch with ~100ap is really not the cheapest way.

as for offensive anti elite/legendary unit - he needs lot of luck or a newbie opponent that don't knew about tou 0 and wont attack swordsman after he use this skill.

Anyone saying that swordsman with For the Light is ok should compare its 43ap to 45 pre patch Fang

while i knew that 45ap fang is not great 'icon' of balanced unit but many players defended their cost before patch.

i managed to face 2-3 players with the "For the Light!" swordman. They even activated it vs me (im not using any elite/legendary btw) to my big surprise in the very first turn. This is for sure the worst thing to do. I managed to hit them obviously for insane damage.

Beside that, players i faced obviously didn't know how to use it correctly as i believe it is meant to be a "last stand" option worth to be used when the swordman is about to die anyway. Its cost is however too high as you are usually forced to activate the swordman as soon as possible to avoid that it dies. I would make it cost 6 AP as you basically benefit from fierce+ferocious just for 1 turn. Another interesting option would be to give them counterattack especially if martial inspiration from the valkyre would give ambidextrous to all who has this skill (which might be the way to make players use that skill who knows )

Other than this skill...taunt is awesome. I didn't use it in this new patch but unless they changed it, it has a very high impact. Taunting+sprint is very good. -3 DAM is huge...add the -3 ACC as well and hitting that lion/knight becomes suddenly harder.

The other skills to me are ok as they reflect that lions should have the best rolls in the game. Swordmen with parry are really annoying ( vs ram and wolf!) , vivacity can be a good choice if the meta has many archers, and fencer i guess makes sense if you go "for the light!" route altough i would like something else...maybe +1 TOU before activation.

"For the Light!" seems too expensive, but I would like to get the opinion of someone who was not afraid of its cost and tried to use it in-game.

Yes but if you wait to long - you simply get dead Swordsman - his base TOU is not so great also - so when he is below 20hp he can die any activation as long as he blocks a strategical patch to mor important units.

vivacity can be a good choice if the meta has many archers

base DOD of 8 is so terrible that +2 makes no serious difference. Its nice only for units with base DOD 13 or more.

Other than this skill...taunt is awesome.

would be if work as intended
'until end of turn' duration was ok when all other stances worked that way. Especialy when current taunt makes real anti-combo with parry skill.

Swordmen with parry are really annoying ( vs ram and wolf!)

only if you must attak them before their activation and only in 1vs1 situation - but while they are not so cheap - its mostly 2v1 sutiation ar enemy is elite/assault with ATT 13+... if my sordsmans have more than one parry during whole game - im mostly amazed

as i said many times - ACC/PAR is currently 2-3 times less important than STR/TOU due to base 80 not 50% for success and high ATT stat for all elites (no units with low ATT and high STR at all) So with base success rate 80% PAR must be 8 points higher than ATT to prove any serious usefulness... and this with enemy FEAR factor is so much impossible

Swords are the worst melee unit ingame to level besside the 2 points on parry dod or acc there is no point to lvling them.

Ofc there are the skellys with hardboil and 3 ap more that are much better meatshield but the swordman parry chance is really nice, unfortunately it again makes the lion more dependant on rolls than other factions.

I use for the light but not in the entended manner that the devs thought. I litteraly just activate it (usually in a chokepoint) to prevent enemies from getting to my mage until the next turn (hopefully the roll will go my way or gg but thats lion mage build for you).

I also think the Swordman is the weakest melee unit in game, the way i see it is that devs are trying to use his high parry as a way to balance him with other similar units but the things is, parry can be lowered by other races to easy, eaither with stun from ruthless or fear, they do have higher than normal footsoldier Wil but this is by far not enough to not get feared by fear 12 or more, on the other hand you have a skeleton warriors that can't be feared that has low parry and better Tou but can get what i think is one of the most powerful talents in game and that is Hard Boiled, this talent can't be reduced by anything and it works for melee, ranged and magic damage. Then you also have the Fang but honestly this footsoldier is just to different to the other 2 to even compare and his AP cost reflects that.

So... lets look at Swordman for a second, they have full plated armor that covers his entire body, they have a shield too but for some reason they have the worst Tou of the footsoldiers i would say give them more Tou, 1 point more would be enough maybe even 2 if you dont want to change anything else. As i see them they are a smaller version of the KoTL but the KoTL is just way way to different in how they can absorb insane amounts of damage regardless of the high parry.

Why not just give them Hard Boiled if you dont want to raise their Tou, if you look at at Swordman he has to pick for level 2 just 3 passive talents that give him very small bonuses to their stats if "something" happens, again this bonuses to stats can be completly negated by combat injuries or fear or stun, so i think is just not enough.

What about lowering their already low damage by 1 and give them Master Fencer or not lowering his damage at all and give them Master fencer with a penalty on Parry.

I think what i mean is to make Swordmen either more flexible to be able to have different builds, units with different skills that actually do something, for the enemy to actually have to think what to move where and when, or to make them have a very specific task and be good at it, as of right now i just dont see them having a purpose other than meat shield and they are not even very good at that.

I think the best change for Lion Swordsmen would be a pants nerf. Those pants are just silly looking. The rest of the army looks great though.