Elite units - yay or nay?

patch 0.12.10
Simple question: what do you think is the current status of elite units?

please at least state if you used them and for how long.

I'll start with my impressions from the 400 AP bracket:

Ram:

Skull warrior: Exactly how an elite unit should be in my opinion, the AP cost is fine and it is interesting to level it. It offers a serious threat without being too hard or easy to be dealt with. I run a high level skull-warrior based company and so far i obtained 7 victories out of 7 so it is 100% viable in the current meta and it offers an interesting choice.

what could be improved:
-possessed should have the AP cost reduced. Make it so people who want a cheap lvl 2 skull warrior can use it. I would say 5-6 AP is fine but 14 AP is way too much when you have HB next to it.

my rating : 4.5 / 5


Wolf:

Grave guardian: not strictly an elite unit but the price and raw power makes him one in my opinion. So far it is well performing and it has been an all star for me in many matches....as a sideboard unit vs undeads. Now, maybe it is intended to be played like that but in the past i remember using it regardless of the company i faced...that -1 DAM really packed a big punch in my opinion as it can't kill basic units as fast as before. After level three it becomes much less useful, especially because of level 4 as the player have to choose between two skills that are terrible (either for rng/cost or usefulness). Also...Martyr 10 AP...i can't even describe how useless it is , especially at that price and in that army (maybe im missing an uber combo here who knows).

all in all a very good sideboard unit vs ram which is not worth to level after 3 because of the AP. It is not close to a levelled skull warrior power (it can even cost more!) unless vs ram and not worth to explore the tree.

my rating: 3/5

Predator of Blood: I'll be honest, i tried it coupled with TWO lonewolves to support him + 2 fang...and it works at least vs lion. I won my good share of matches with it but ALWAYS at level 2. Why? because levelling it simply not worth it. Its AP will skyrocket and in the end you will have a very powerful unit (bloodlust+master strike) but that will totally lack any support. While the skull warrior and the knight do not really need support the PoB without something helping it is dead especially due to the low PAR.

For instance a PoB lvl 4 with 161 AP of value cannot count on 2 support lonewolves. Having one lonewolf lvl 4 with mortification will automatically makes your 400 AP army terribly unbalanced with a terrible AP value. Try yourself on the builder to make a lvl 4 PoB which has a bit of support and you will see how you can't come up with something decent. 4 units as a wolven...is silly when you think you can have a worg + 3 fangs.

all in all, same issue as GG , not really worth leveling but good sideboard vs lion as fear REALLY destroys him.

My rating : 2.5/5

Lion:

Knight of the lion: I do not play lion BUT in my opinion Kotl can be really amazing at lvl 3 with taunt or knockdown and it is fairly costed. I feel many people forget that this unit is not build to make damage but to CONTROL the enemy. Especially taunt will make your other units a nightmare to hit...also that -3 DAM from taunt is REALLY relevant. I feel fairly sure when i say this as i played a lot with taunt (on other units).

my rating (as opponent) 4/5

Lion:
I do not play lion BUT in my opinion Kotl can be really amazing at lvl 3 with taunt or knockdown and it is fairly costed. I feel many people forget that this unit is not build to make damage but to CONTROL the enemy. Especially taunt will make your other units a nightmare to hit...also that -3 DAM from taunt is REALLY relevant.

Controlling ONE not higher than assault unit for 150ap?
Imagine Crane with STR 10 - thats the knight...

He works only partialy as a LION counter becouse Vs that army str 10 is enough to make serious damage and his RES+HB is also annoying Vs Alahan... but now without a serious healing its no longer a big treat even for universal (none sideboarded) company.

2/5 is max that he can take - POB>>Knight maybe not >>> but > or >> depending on point of view. But I ca agree that both should use a fix.

I haven't used my Knight of the Lion in awhile or my Skull Warrior either because they just cost too much and in 400AP games, you need lots of units. That being said, I think if you make a company around one of them, you can get enough low level units in there.It's just in my experience, they are better units to make a company around (although I haven't given Blue's new Skull Company a go yet).

I have played all factions but the only Elite I have used on a regular basis is the KotL. I think he does what he does well. He is high AP at level 1 but the levelling does not add as much as it does for many other units. Level 3 and taunt is not only good but it is great fun. Taunt has a good range and does not effect movement. A unit with taunt will often have to be activated early in a turn, this means I take Master Fencer rather than Parry. The early activation required to get good use from taunt could be considered a disadvantage of the skill.
I also think Scourge at 4 AP is cheap enough to take without worrying about side boarding the Knight. I have not tried Counter Attack because I have not got level 5 yet. It seems to me that very few units are better suited to that skill.

When I use the KotL I am including it because I like it rather than because I think it will help me win. I am usually not inclined to take high AP units because even if they are good they can make you vulnerable to an easy defeat.

I have played all factions but the only Elite I have used on a regular basis is the KotL. I think he does what he does well. He is high AP at level 1 but the levelling does not add as much as it does for many other units. Level 3 and taunt is not only good but it is great fun. Taunt has a good range and does not effect movement. A unit with taunt will often have to be activated early in a turn, this means I take Master Fencer rather than Parry. The early activation required to get good use from taunt could be considered a disadvantage of the skill.
I also think Scourge at 4 AP is cheap enough to take without worrying about side boarding the Knight. I have not tried Counter Attack because I have not got level 5 yet. It seems to me that very few units are better suited to that skill.

When I use the KotL I am including it because I like it rather than because I think it will help me win. I am usually not inclined to take high AP units because even if they are good they can make you vulnerable to an easy defeat.

yeah exactly my point even as an opponent other than that i'm fairly sure you can use taunt + counterattack on the same turn, right?

Counterattack on tank unit with really low ACC as for elite - makes you sure that knight will be attacked only when he stay last Vs whole enemy army
Disengage from it without even suffer his str 10 is far to easy and for both TAUNT and KNOCK you need to activate it first mostly for blocking purposes and loosing Parry bonus... additionally activating first makes him nice target for all ranged units with ferocious.

Played with all three.

Skull Warrior: 5-/5. Agree with the fact that Possessed costs too much when the alternative is HB. Like its efficacy and other skills. His high damage output and toughness can allow him to be the protagonist of your army.

PoB: 1.5/5. Strong, very nice skill tree, but with that AP cost + Wolfen army you'll be always heavy outnumbered -> enemy moves last -> your PoB dies before being useful in any way. If you want to field just a couple of units, then it is better to choose the Worg lvl3-4 (lvl1-2 is awful like all the legendary units), while if you want a unit in the same AP range, then the GotR works better in many situations (higher PAR and TOU +4 points in each!, more DAM against undead at lvl2) and costs less. Lvl 5 ability giving it -6 TOU makes him deadly (+3DAM/+3ACC) but veeeery fragile, you can't use it very often since you usually are outnumbered and don't move last -> you're dead as soon as you finish your War Fury!

GotR: 3/5. Useless Martyr ability for a unit so expensive. Nice till lvl 3 but mainly against Undead, don't worth to lvl up from lvl3.

KotL: 4-/5. One of the units more resistant of the game (5 less TOU than the Golem, but a high PAR value - 6 more). Nice skill tree (not considering the useless lvl4 Implacable ability). However it is useful only to defend since his DAM is too low to be a problem for the enemy -> 3 lvl3 gards with Parry and For the Light costs less and works better -> block many more paths, give you more units in the field and so you can be more easily the last player, with the possibility to use at the best your archers/mages. When the enemy learns to know him, he just ignores him mostly, going to target all your other units before focusing on him. However, thanks to his PAR and TOU I won some games just with him standing still and parring/counterattacking, so he still gets 4-/5. Very nice skills till lvl3 (Master Fencer + Knock-out (+ Lion ini) can block an enemy in its position, Parry is useful when he's your last unit in the battlefield, Taunt reduces greatly the DAM and ACC of the enemy, but you can't use it efficiently with Parry but only with Master Fencer), between the lvl4 ones the only useful is Scourge - Living Dead, lvl 5 is a MUST.


My main ideas on how to try to improve them are:

- Skull Warrior -> stays as it is, maybe some AP less for Possessed (like 8-10 AP instead of 14 AP).

- PoB -> give him the +1 MOV or a big reduction in AP

- GotR -> +1 DAM OR a dozen AP less.

- KotL: more useful lvl4 abilities (e.g. Ambidextrous if Counter-attack selected, very expensive - like 25-30AP). Counter-attack at lvl3 instead of Taunt at lvl 5 OR a dozen AP less in its overall cost.

As you know I'm not as experienced as you guys, but playing Wolf with a GG, and having faced both PoBs and KoTL in decent quantities, I'd definitely agree with Almanro's assessment (maybe I'd give the GG a 3,5 rather than a 3, but aye).

KotL: 4-/5. One of the units more resistant of the game (5 less TOU than the Golem, but a high PAR value - 6 more). Nice skill tree (not considering the useless lvl4 Implacable ability). However it is useful only to defend since his DAM is too low to be a problem for the enemy -> 3 lvl3 gards with Parry and For the Light costs less and works better -> block many more paths, give you more units in the field and so you can be more easily the last player, with the possibility to use at the best your archers/mages. When the enemy learns to know him, he just ignores him mostly, going to target all your other units before focusing on him. However, thanks to his PAR and TOU I won some games just with him standing still and parring/counterattacking, so he still gets 4-/5. Very nice skills till lvl3 (Master Fencer + Knock-out (+ Lion ini) can block an enemy in its position, Parry is useful when he's your last unit in the battlefield, Taunt reduces greatly the DAM and ACC of the enemy, but you can't use it efficiently with Parry but only with Master Fencer), between the lvl4 ones the only useful is Scourge - Living Dead, lvl 5 is a MUST.


My main ideas on how to try to improve them are:

- KotL: more useful lvl4 abilities (e.g. Ambidextrous if Counter-attack selected, very expensive - like 25-30AP). Counter-attack at lvl3 instead of Taunt at lvl 5 OR a dozen AP less in its overall cost.

I think taunt works very well with the KotL. You say people ignore yours, well taunt and let them. Parry is a good skill but it does not work well with taunt, or Counter-attack or even Knock-out because these things will require an early activation. Master Fencer for me is a must have. The KotL does good (not great) damage and ripostes often. I think you should switch out Parry for Master Fencer, it is a better choice on the Knight.
People say the knights DAM is low. What the hell are you comparing it to? It seems people are still hurting from his damage nerf. I started playing DoW after that so I am not comparing it to the 'Old' KotL when by all accounts he was OP.

if KOTL would have more damage it would be really really OP. Attacking it is often a risk as you will simply get parried. Ignoring him is a good tactic but when he starts to use taunt or knockdown...i dont know how much you can ignore it

all in all as i thought the wolven seem not to have very appealing elites....