It is currently Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:30 am


Turn Balance

Chat with other players about your DoWO experience!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

regulus434

  • Posts: 2
  • Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:20 pm

Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 4:38 pm

I will say that I'm a noob up front so save the flames.

I've played 54 games at this point and I can't see how the turn order is fair or balanced. I've asked in chat and been told that the turn order is decided by a d6 roll each turn with races having a base number.

Personally I can't say that I've experienced that, it seems to me that each game either I will go first each turn or I will go second. If it is as I have been told then it maybe that the rolls are skewed depending on who your opponents race is but I could be wrong. If it is not as I've been told I would love to know how it is setup.

Either way I would say that this system is a bit broken. A roll to decide who goes first at the start of the game seems fine to me but once the game is under way I think the player who should start the turn is the one with fewer units on the field.

If a player has more units on the field they already are going to have more actions in that turn while the person who has fewer units is given a 'wait' command to make up for it but most of the time I never get to use the 'wait' because I'm already behind and need to make moves to kill some of their men to catch up.

So in my opinion the 'waits' are useless if you are second to act in the turn and you are down men. What do you guys think?
Offline
User avatar

Dragon_Warrior

  • Posts: 1054
  • Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:40 pm

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 4:46 pm

Either way I would say that this system is a bit broken. A roll to decide who goes first at the start of the game seems fine to me but once the game is under way I think the player who should start the turn is the one with fewer units on the field.

If a player has more units on the field they already are going to have more actions in that turn while the person who has fewer units is given a 'wait' command to make up for it but most of the time I never get to use the 'wait' because I'm already behind and need to make moves to kill some of their men to catch up.

So in my opinion the 'waits' are useless if you are second to act in the turn and you are down men. What do you guys think?

nope
ign: Draconnor, Cynwall player, 23 years in computer games, 14 years in battle games, 8 years in Confrontation Universe, 4 years of making own battle games.
Image
Offline
User avatar

Hod

  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:22 am
  • Location: I've been told I live in Breaking Bad territory

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 5:01 pm

Just to restate how I understand the turns work first.
It's a D6 roll at the beginning of each new Round. Each army is weighted (Lion is weighted the highest, Wolf in the middle and Ram the lowest). So the outcome of this is that Lion will usually go first if they play the Wolf and almost always go first against the Ram. Ram will very rarely go first against the Lion and occasionally versus the Wolf. Wolf will sometimes go first against the Lion and usually go first against the Ram.

I play a lot of Ram and go last a lot, like a lot. Since I am at the losing end, I should be one to complain, but I am fine with the system. It's how these games go, lore and all. Lion has a better initiative then the undead horde of the Ram.

I have a feeling that the reason you feel it is always the same is because since there are only three faction, depending on which one you play, it is usually is the same. I feel like the Lion and the Ram are at the two extremes. So once we get more faction in the gray area with the Wolf, it should be more back and forth.
Hod's CoolMiniOrNot Gallery

Useful links:
Mirror 1 AP army calculator (by Hod): http://www.dogsofwar.co.nf/
Mirror 2 AP army calculator (by Hod): http://www.dogsofwar.eu.pn/
Offline
User avatar

Hod

  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:22 am
  • Location: I've been told I live in Breaking Bad territory

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 5:03 pm

I forgot to mention too. The Waits are super valuable in the early game. When playing the defensive cat and mouse, being able to make the opponent show his hand with 3 or 4 units before you make a single move is super valuable. During the later game, not so much, but early on, it's big.
Hod's CoolMiniOrNot Gallery

Useful links:
Mirror 1 AP army calculator (by Hod): http://www.dogsofwar.co.nf/
Mirror 2 AP army calculator (by Hod): http://www.dogsofwar.eu.pn/
Offline
User avatar

Hod

  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:22 am
  • Location: I've been told I live in Breaking Bad territory

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 5:05 pm

Dragon_Warrior wrote:
Either way I would say that this system is a bit broken. A roll to decide who goes first at the start of the game seems fine to me but once the game is under way I think the player who should start the turn is the one with fewer units on the field.

If a player has more units on the field they already are going to have more actions in that turn while the person who has fewer units is given a 'wait' command to make up for it but most of the time I never get to use the 'wait' because I'm already behind and need to make moves to kill some of their men to catch up.

So in my opinion the 'waits' are useless if you are second to act in the turn and you are down men. What do you guys think?

nope


Come on Dragon. He stated up front to save the flame.
Hod's CoolMiniOrNot Gallery

Useful links:
Mirror 1 AP army calculator (by Hod): http://www.dogsofwar.co.nf/
Mirror 2 AP army calculator (by Hod): http://www.dogsofwar.eu.pn/
Offline

p122ab0y

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 5:22 pm

Hmmm this turn balance is tricky and there are times where it comes down to a coin toss (advantage to the person who draws first blood this is more likely to happen on same comp match ups). That being said it's not unpredictable in the sense that turn-order usually result in Lion, Wolf, and lastly RAM. If you know you'll go 2nd, you may decide to place units that are engaged or engagement range in defensive mode. If you know you'll likely go 1st, yo may decide to position a unit in engagement range at the very end of the previous turn.

Waiting is never useless, especially when you have fewer units than your opponent. Remember going Last can be just as advantageous as going First.
Offline

Macabre-13

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 6:55 pm

What has already been said in the replies are all great comments. I just wanted to add number clarifications, so people can better gauge their chances of going first/second.

The test is called the Discipline roll, which is a D6 roll based off an Army Discipline value. The following are the current Discipline values for each faction:

-Lions of Alahan: 3
-Wolfen of Yllia: 1
-Baronies of Acheron: 0

As you can see, Lions are heavily weighted to go first, but it's not unheard of for even the Undead to win on a good roll.

Furthermore, 1 "Wait" command is awarded to the outnumbered player for each additional unit after the first, and summoned units (e.g. Morbid Puppets) count towards the total. For example, a Wolfen army with 3 units versus an Undead army with 6 units will be awarded 2 "Wait" commands at the start of the turn.
Offline

regulus434

  • Posts: 2
  • Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 8:08 pm

I'm glad I'm not going crazy. I understand what is happening better with the turn rolls since there are only 3 factions right now.

I would still say it would be fairer to give the guy with less units the first go after the game starts so they can use the 'waits' if they chose.

Thanks for all the responses.
Offline

GardenOfSun

  • Posts: 62
  • Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Turn Balance

PostSat Mar 29, 2014 8:21 pm

regulus434 wrote:I'm glad I'm not going crazy. I understand what is happening better with the turn rolls since there are only 3 factions right now.

I would still say it would be fairer to give the guy with less units the first go after the game starts so they can use the 'waits' if they chose.

Thanks for all the responses.


This doesn't sound like a bad idea actually. The fluff reason could be that the smaller force can maneuver more nimbly and thus get the initiative for the first (and only the first) attack.
But as others said, even like this the systems seems pretty sound.
Offline
User avatar

Jigoku

Site Admin

  • Posts: 226
  • Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:35 pm

Re: Turn Balance

PostMon Mar 31, 2014 9:50 am

We did a lot of testing before we chose to get to the discipline roll solution.

Of all our tests, the "Company with less units always starts first" seemed the most promising to me, and it turned out that it was one of the worst - it turned out really ugly.

It was awful to see how Wolfen armies handled this; including (but not limited to) how Hunters played last, moving their full 14 hexagons before activating first and killing any wizard on a 7 hexagons range with a charge, then getting out of harm with the pursuit movement (resulting in a "visible" very long activation of a 24 hexagons-long movement total). Let's not even talk about the Worg abuse we saw in these times - that could be even more awful now with the Golem.

It led us to the conclusion that, although the random factor can be weak in some configurations (Lion vs Ram, mostly), it is of the essence here.
The sole uncertainty (no matter how weak) of whom is going to act first next turn is vital to keep things balanced and prevent horrible abuse. If there is a small chance that you can't start the next turn, it turns out you really do not move your units the same way you do when you are actually certain that you will go first next turn.
It was pretty clear in our testing sessions.

Plus, the armies were since then balanced around it, too (and it kind of matches the lore of the TT game, minus some artefacts and spells that helped with some discipline rolls).
Dogs of War Online - Game Designer
Next

Return to General Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron