The game is not fun enough to be popular.

The game is not fun enough to be popular, it could be and it should be, but.... it's not. the business model and few choices from the devs are taking away most of the fun from the game.

This game is based on the popular board game Confrontation, there is not much room for a personal opinion, Confrontation was well liked by the players, so we can assume the game is fun. You pick it and put it online, you can again assume that the game should be fun to play.

My complaints will highlight the restrictions that the business model put on the game. Before starting i want you to understand that i' am fully aware that they are no charity company, this is their job, and they have to make money out of the game, but there are different ways to get your money with a f2p model.

1) I've never seen anyone playing 200 AP irl, when i try to make some of my friends join Dog of War the first complaint i get from EVERYONE is ''what is this shit? only 3 units on the battlefield''. The devs decided that you will start to play 200 AP for several reasons, let's go over them and draw some conclusions:

a) ''Because you're a beginner and 200 AP it's easier'' Some might agree with this, but in the end they make you do this because they hope that if you like the game enough, you'll buy right away units with cash to play higher AP.

2) I'm only playing 200 AP because it's hard to sustain a 800 AP army, since your units get injured and i don't like to farm to heal my units.

In the end people end up playing low AP because forced into it. Veterans or beginners would have much more fun if they could play 800 AP battles freely, this would make the game much more appealing to everyone. Another reason for the devs forcing you into this endless farm could be the fear of people getting bored and leaving the game, so if you give them something to farm, they will not leave. If that's what they think, they are wrong, people have great fun playing the same mode over and over again on LoL. just put a ranked system in the game for those who want something more, and they'll have plenty to do.

I think the f2p model should be like Dota2, where everything is unlocked and you pay just for the skins. This is not my personal opinion, it's a fact that some people don't want to play this game because you've to grind units. If you get more people playing the game, you'll end up making more money by selling cosmetics, and you'll give the community a better ingame experience.


The game it's not bad, i'm having fun playing it, but i could've much more fun and i would play it much more if it had a more open f2p model.

Business model taking the fun away from the game: Not at all. Compared to 90% of the free to play around, this game is easy to get into without being a pay to win. The only things you buy are not changing your chances on the battlefield.

Since it's a free to play, there has to be grind. The game is enjoyable at 300-400 points. It's not a carbon copy of confrontation.

You complain about pay to win, but Confrontation is a pay to win! You buy the units! Here you don't have to. Either you ahve money and get them right away, or you get them for free with time.

Last of all: It's a beta. All the features/faction/content aren't in. The injuries system is getting tweaked later on (see next patch

DOTA is an exception to the rule, it's the kind of game that draws so many players that any business model will work, because there will be more "whales". I agree it's a good system, but it has to be sustained.

I enjoy the game a lot and am going to continue playing it. I really hope it does well.

But I understand a little of what is being said in the OP. Currently I am in the opening grind of the game (I still haven't been able to play in a game over 200 AP), and I am not that close to getting out of it. I've played for a few days and still haven't gotten enough Renown to purchase the next unit I want. The limitation on needing Renown levels to purchase certain units is causing me to keep up the grind to get what I want. I'm not saying I think that everything should be free, but I don't think Renown should limit what units I can purchase.

Say I was someone, who once I liked a game, immediately dumped a lot of money on it. I still wouldn't be able to get the units I wanted because I didn't have the Renown. Now I know you are saying, well that's because we don't want Pay To Win, but that is not necessarily the case. I still have to use the units to upgrade them and just having good units doesn't mean I am any good at playing with them. If I purchased a level 5 Chimera, I couldn't go play in a 200 AP game with it and expect to win. The varying levels of AP per units and the matching of similar AP ensures that things should be fair, so why make me grind for Renown before purchasing units. In the tabletop games, I can go and buy all the best units before I ever play. Does that mean I'm going to school everyone? Not at all.

All of the above is nothing more than my humble opinion. Take it for what it is worth. I still really love this game and want to see it succeed.

Edit: got ninjaed

I agree with the OP that larger armies have a bigger maintainance due to the injury system and the fact that you have to grind up the ducats for expensive units.

I would recommend to take the injury system completely away or make it so that at least those injuries might heal over time. Injuries don't modify the AP-values despite having an effect of the overall performance of the units - so you could theoretically abuse the system by stacking all those injuries that give you bonusses.

I would like to see injuries in game modes like tournaments or campaigns where there is a definitive start and end to an event, and after that you get tabula rasa, a new beginning.

About the collection and purchase of units, I have to disagree though. The current system works fine, although purchase of units shouldn't be tied to the renown of your company but only to your financial assets (ducats or cyans).

You should also be able to unlock new unit and company slots not just with renown but with DUCATS. The whole game should be accessible by ducats alone, and the items you can purchase with cyans should be cosmetic in nature (name your units, paint your units, create special banners or logos for your own warband) and most importantly - boosts. Boosts to renown, to experience, to earning of ducats. Create a premium membership where you get a boost of X % on income and other stuff.

Right now the economy as it currently stands is ok for a beta, and fair to anyone trying out the game. But later on if or when the community grows, those options i mentioned above should be reconsidered.

i agree on what the OP said: 200 AP is way too low for new players.

starting comps should be at 300 AP (which is a bracket reserved to beginners only with some restrictions and which doesn't provide any rank point) and ranked matches at 400 and 800 AP. Simple as that. Starting comps of 2 units provide almost 0 tactical complexity (im looking at you PoB+hunter)

The limitation on needing Renown levels to purchase certain units is causing me to keep up the grind to get what I want.

That's true too.

Since it's a free to play, there has to be grind.

This is absurd. It's a game. I want to have fun, not spend time doing un-fun things so I can have fun later.

Do you want a sense of accomplishment? Fine. Add an unrated/unranked "skirmish" mode. Victories in Skirmish mode aren't counted; for a Skirmish, players build a new company, with all slots and units available immediately, for free (no cost in ducats, just AP), at maximum level. At the end of the game, the company is destroyed. There. Now I can immediately create the company I want instead of slaving for several hours, grinding rep/ducats/XP for the chance to have fun.

Hell, I'd pay $20 for a skirmish option.

The rest, I can only echo. Frequent tournaments would be awesome. A given AP cost/game mode, players can enter any standard company that meets the requirements, and get matched against similarly-ranked opponents.

Campaigns would be great too. Players must create a new company at 200 AP to enter. They're limited to a certain number of games (say, 150) and the company's renown and ducats start at 0. Highest ranking at the end of two weeks wins.

Maybe even charge a small fee in Cyans to enter a tournament of campaign. I'd pay it.

These would keep me entertained for months. And the game's actually not bad at all. I enjoy it. But the grind will turn off new players.

As things are ... after the first major patch that rebalances abilities and costs, my carefully designed companies are going to get all screwed up. That's an investment of 20+ hours right now. That's exactly what will motivate me to go do something else. Like paint the 3000 AP of pewter Wolfen I have here on my desk.

This is absurd. It's a game. I want to have fun, not spend time doing un-fun things so I can have fun later.

Not necessarily. As I said, you can use the shortcuts (pay money to get more guys faster) or get everything for free, in exchange of time. It's that, a F2P model, it's a win-win situation. There have to be concessions if you want everything for free, servers don't feed themselves.

Gold doesn't give any in-battle advantages compared to not gold buyers. It's a good business model.

Ideally, I agree it would be better to not have any grind (Or maybe only for legendaries, whatever) but it's not a game made by some super great company that is certain to get enough people to sustain an economy based purely on cosmetics (TF2, DOTA 2).

In your first post you mentioned LOL for Ranked, but oddly enough you didn't mention it for the economy system. Yeah, that's right: Because it didn't fir your idea of a good business model, yet you adhered to the game for a long period of time I believe.


Many of the ideas in your last post are things that are entirely possible: It's a freaking beta for Frack's sake!, things are bound to evolve. You can keep making suggestions. Part of the lack of fun you feel, I'm certain, comes from the lack of content but it seems you assumed everything was working as intended, finished, and the BETA part of the game's name was here for cool factor.

I'm not saying the game is perfect, far from it. But you act like a petulant child that likes the game yet wants everything right now without making a reality roll of 18+ (on a D20).

Since it's a free to play, there has to be grind.

This is absurd. It's a game. I want to have fun, not spend time doing un-fun things so I can have fun later.

Do you want a sense of accomplishment? Fine. Add an unrated/unranked "skirmish" mode. Victories in Skirmish mode aren't counted; for a Skirmish, players build a new company, with all slots and units available immediately, for free (no cost in ducats, just AP), at maximum level. At the end of the game, the company is destroyed. There. Now I can immediately create the company I want instead of slaving for several hours, grinding rep/ducats/XP for the chance to have fun.

Hell, I'd pay $20 for a skirmish option.

The rest, I can only echo. Frequent tournaments would be awesome. A given AP cost/game mode, players can enter any standard company that meets the requirements, and get matched against similarly-ranked opponents.

Campaigns would be great too. Players must create a new company at 200 AP to enter. They're limited to a certain number of games (say, 150) and the company's renown and ducats start at 0. Highest ranking at the end of two weeks wins.

Maybe even charge a small fee in Cyans to enter a tournament of campaign. I'd pay it.

These would keep me entertained for months. And the game's actually not bad at all. I enjoy it. But the grind will turn off new players.

As things are ... after the first major patch that rebalances abilities and costs, my carefully designed companies are going to get all screwed up. That's an investment of 20+ hours right now. That's exactly what will motivate me to go do something else. Like paint the 3000 AP of pewter Wolfen I have here on my desk.

First of all: whenever a patch changes some talent trees all units will have an automatic traits reset. So if you have your beloved PoB lvl 5 after the patch it will become lvl 1 with FIVE traits to spend once again - so no waste of your precious time (unless you consider re-thinking your army a waste of time of course - but personally i just love this aspect).

secondly devs stated that they are going to change the way ladders works adding probably the skirmish option you wanted (aka non-ranked games). It is a beta and they need us players to change things for the better. They will probably also add tournaments as well in the future.

About units and renown...there is no real grind unless you want to buy ASAP legendary units. I've really not enough time to play since open beta (i think i did maybe 20-25 games in total since it started) and i'm already at renown 9 and i've access to most units minus elites (which i can have by using a pre-made company btw) and legendaries (which i cant buy anyway with the ducats at lvl 13 i guess). You are a new player and it is ok by me that you need time to train with "easy" units before having access to more complex ones - if you dont want just support the devs by buying cyans.

Not necessarily. As I said, you can use the shortcuts (pay money to get more guys faster) or get everything for free, in exchange of time. It's that, a F2P model, it's a win-win situation. There have to be concessions if you want everything for free, servers don't feed themselves.

Few things to dissect here:

1. I'm completely willing to pay real money for a good game. A game that requires me to work before having fun is not well designed. (The folks at ArenaNet realized this with Guild Wars and let players start at max level for PVP; most MMOs are pretty big offenders here - want to try a new class? Gotta spend a week of your life leveling up first!)

To wit: From what I've seen, this game is a PVP-focused, minimal-story enterprise (yes, it's beta, but I'm guessing what we're seeing is pretty close to what we'll get). Its appeal is not, say, watching my units develop as characters and tell an interesting story. The appeal is the same as a tabletop wargame's appeal: design a list/comp for maximum effectiveness within given restrictions/parameters, and test it against other people who have done the same. That's the fun the game is selling.

Anything that gets between me and a game's fun (whether a bad interface, pay-to-win, bugs, whatever) is bad game design. This is indisputable. Fortunately DOW doesn't seem to suffer from interface fails, P2W, or any really bad bugs. But the time sink is definitely getting in the way of my fun.

Anyone who thinks I owe a company/game some amount of time in order to play their game is not thinking. I put in time at my day job; playing games is what I do when I am not working. I should not have to work to play games.

And a quick note: there is a difference between an in-game achievement (which might require work/grinding) and simply playing the game as it's meant. It's no achievement to finally, after sixty hours, be fielding the company I've been wanting to field since the first day. It's no achievement to say finally, I get to have fun!

The F2P model is specifically to encourage me to pay to do away with disagreeable aspects of the game (time sink) or access bonuses (such as cosmetic alterations); I have no problems with that, per se.

2. Now RMT (Cyans) might seem to provide a solution. Buy all the units. Might need to spend a little time leveling them up, yeah, that part will suck, but then you're fine, right?

There are a couple problems. One, I am restricted in number of companies, and number of slots, and number of units. I can own a single Worg. I can never have Worg A for List A, and Worg B for List B (and there are, in fact, 31 different permutations of Worg). And I don't have enough slots for five Fangs AND five Crossbows AND three Lonewolves, etc ...

Two, because talents cost points, they are an integral part of how I design my list (big part of the fun, remember?). No problem there, but if I have one list with a level 5 POB, then want to try another list with a level 2 POB, I have no way to "de-level" him; I have to buy another. If I've already bought the maximum number, I have to delete one.

In other words, I cannot simply buy all the options. If I want to try something that I don't have the units on hand for, I have to spend more money or many more hours. I do not have the flexibility necessary for the fun I want.

3. I think you are conflating my voice and some of my objections with someone else's. Let me sum up for clarity's sake:

- Inherent in the game's fun is designing new lists down to the letter. Yes, you also test them on the battlefield, and there's some amount of skill and foresight needed there, and that's important and fun and all; but the former is the sine qua non of this kind of wargaming. How fun would the game be if it randomly generated your lists each time?

- The game's current design restricts my ability to do that. Either I have to pay more and more money each time I want a new list, or I have to spend dozens of hours. Or both. Neither of these are fun. Neither encourage me to keep playing.

- I've seen absolutely no indication that this is likely to change. The devs have talked about tweaking mechanics, but not adding entirely new ways to play the game along these lines, or new monetary relationships (at least not that I've seen; if I'm wrong, point me to it). This is why I suggested it as a separate mode.

- I am more than happy to spend money to get the sort of fun I want. Money for fun is a perfectly valid exchange. I'm not happy if the costs are not fixed. Lump sum? Okay. Monthly subscription? Fine. Pay-each-time-you-want-to-have-fun? No.

If you want to debate me, those are the points you should be debating.

And for the record, I like the game. I wouldn't bother commenting on a forum if I didn't want to see it succeed, and in some form that I'd actually play.